Tally-Ho No. 9 Horseback Restoration: Live on KS

[flashcards]

[theCapraAegagrus]

I really like all of the restorations that this guy has produced.

[Gonzalo]

I have some of his restorations, (including a transformation deck if I'm not mistaken), and they're pretty good, but again, the shipping is a deal-breaker for me. $8 for one deck + $10 shipping. $18 deck. Not happenning for me.

[shermjack]

I love his restorations, but he has used a Chinese printer in the past for some of his projects and though he says that USPCC approved the art, it does not specify who will print this deck. 8USD for a USPCC deck would be great, but I have my doubts it will be USPCC

[JuFiN]

It is a branded tally ho deck he has no choice but to print with USPCC.

[theCapraAegagrus]

It is a branded tally ho deck he has no choice but to print with USPCC.

Yes.

[CBJ]

It's a valid concern. They should verify that it is going to be printed by USPCC. They have broken the rules in the past.

Michael had Bicycle tuckcases printed without permission form USPCC. and Bicycle is not even sure if the cards were printed with them.

My conversation with Bicycle Custom Dept.


ME:
well it's a bit of a long story.
Back in august Home Run Games posted that they had gilded/special editions coming out of their decks. but everytime I asked them if these decks were from USPC and not them reboxing the decks in tucks they had printed elsewhere... I'd get no response.
Fast forward to yesterday and my friend received these decks... but something isn't right. It's the tuck. super flimsy, and way too much space in the tuck for the cards.
these also weren't shipped out from Home Run Games' US address... but from Shenzen
http://www.homerungames.com/store/limited-preorder.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

here are the decks my friend received









this tuck actually fits a fulll sealed deck into it...







did you guys actually sanction these tucks? or is this guy just printing his own tucks with your logo on them?




Bicycle : Nope, I don't believe we did those and that's a big no no with branded, we're supposed to do all the sourcing on parts etc...



Then I reached out to Micheal







These are 3 Bicycle decks I will not have in my collection... because they are not printed with Bicycle's approval.



Jay

[JuFiN]

Weird that USPCC would continue to work with them after such blatant trademark infringement. Seems they wanted to print a bicycle deck with bicycle quality but didn't want to pay the extra for use of the brand and so didn't tell USPCC it would be "bicycle" branded but still printed with them.

That said, the only decks of theirs that I have are their previous restorations and although it isn't explicitly stated on any of the cards, the all look and feel like USPCC printed decks and I am a bit of a sucker for restoration decks (particularly ones that don't have false aging effects on the cards) so I will be backing this project despite the surprisingly valid concern about printer.

[sinjin7]

It is a branded tally ho deck he has no choice but to print with USPCC.

Part of the problem here is that China has absolutely no regard for international copyright or trademark laws. If you ask them to reproduce and print a copyrighted and trademarked USPCC branded tuck box, the only question they'll ask is, "How many do you need?" Ask them to print "Made in the USA" on everything and they'll have no problems with that, even though they're making it in China. The only ethical check is upon the deck artist to obey the laws, and we all know not all of them do so.

[guru]

I was just about to back this but stopped after going through this thread.

He never mentions it clearly on the campaign page and does USPCC still offers "linoid finish"?

I can still understand about the cost $8 as I've observed that a few regular customers of USPCC do get discounts to the tune of 20-40% on the quote, and I was thinking that as HRG prints these decks regularly through them, he must be getting a discount on printing.

[ICantShuffle]

I was just about to back this but stopped after going through this thread.

+1

He never mentions it clearly on the campaign page and does USPCC still offers "linoid finish"?

Tally Hos are still advertised as having Linoid Finish on the tuck, but it's just an embossed and coated finish like "magic finish," linen finish, embossed finish, etc. There's no real distinction since they started printing in Erlanger, KY. The move to KY was to lower costs, and since they weren't moving the equipment it was a good opportunity to merge/trim the product lines, which meant they had to have fewer types of machines, which again lowers production costs.

It's a shame, because I did like the Mauger quadruplicate resto deck, a lot. And, I wanted to back this one, too. Shipping is free for U.S. it seems, which could indicate that they're printed here. I might pledge just so I can ask in the comments section. I may not get a straight answer, but it's worth a shot.

[guru]

Thanks. I backed the project already.

Not sure why it isn't funded yet.

[ICantShuffle]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/15 ... n/comments" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to the creator they are, indeed, printed by USPCC. I'm in for $8.

[Casual Pixels]

I really like these reproductions. I have pretty much all the ones he's done, and they are uniformly high quality.

I understand that many are looking for something new, but I appreciate a well done "what has been" as well.

And the price here is excellent. I'm surprised that it hasn't funded many times over by now.

[Mike Ratledge]

Here's the deal: the company he uses in China has printed decks with "Made in the USA" in the past, and even decks with the Bicycle logo on the Ace of Spades.

I got samples from them a year or so ago and it includes the "Magnificent" deck among others. Off the top of my head, I don't remember which one, but there is at least one more that is made to look like it's made by USPCC, including logos and trademarks.
I went looking, and the deck they (both "theys" in this case) printed is "Hawaiian". I need to find an example, but I remember that it had USPCC trademarks. I am 99% certain that the Chinese company printed at least some of the Mauger and Triplicate decks.

All of these decks are sent if you ask for samples from that Chinese company. Again, off the top of my head I don't recall their name, but I know that I am not the only one who has seen them. What I remembered was "Yuhua", but I found them on Facebook: Guangzhou Yuhua".

They charge about 25 cents per deck including the tucks. I have no proof, but either they print the ripoff tucks or have someone equally unscrupulous in China do it for them. The finished decks at first appear to have a good quality, but are inconsistent (as far as the quality).

Of course they (Home Run Games) could be culling the less than great quality decks to give them a better quality overall.

[Gareth]

I went looking, and the deck they (both "theys" in this case) printed is "Hawaiian". I need to find an example, but I remember that it had USPCC trademarks. I am 99% certain that the Chinese company printed at least some of the Mauger and Triplicate decks.

Thanks for the info Mike.

On this site, they even show the Triplicates as an example of their work (next to the Magnificent deck and one of their Bee rip-offs).

And the price here is excellent. I'm surprised that it hasn't funded many times over by now.

That, is indeed the problem too. How do they actually print with USPCC and post for $8? Makes me wonder...

On the First - unsuccessful - Magnificent KS page it is particularly noted that 'Freedom Playing Cards' has printed "Saladee's Patent Deck, Murphy Varnish Deck, Mauger Centennial Exposition Deck" for Home Run Games. Whether that is all the variations of those decks, and whether 'Freedom Playing Cards' encompasses decks actually printed by USPCC would be guessing.

[guru]

Yuhua is the one I think has printed fake Jerry's Nugget too.

Anyways, I looked at HRG store and saw some bicycle decks with print run of 200. Not sure how Michael could do it.

I am still in for 2 by the way.

[Mike Ratledge]

On the First - unsuccessful - Magnificent KS page it is particularly noted that 'Freedom Playing Cards' has printed "Saladee's Patent Deck, Murphy Varnish Deck, Mauger Centennial Exposition Deck" for Home Run Games. Whether that is all the variations of those decks, and whether 'Freedom Playing Cards' encompasses decks actually printed by USPCC would be guessing.

Yep. I forgot about that part. "Freedom" is the name they use for US customers. Obviously intended to be deceptive. For some reason Guangzhou Yuhua doesn't look or sound American, right?

Sneaky little Chinese people...

Also, in general tucks are half or less of the cost for printed decks. Usually only a buck or two? They can easily go higher with embossing, foil and more, but I guess simple tucks could be done for under $1?

Bicycle branded decks are minimum 2500 now, and have never been available in quantity under 1000. If he has a print run of 200, he had to throw away 800 and costs would go up 5 times.

By the way, those "ESV" Bee knockoff decks are their pride and joy. For print runs over 10,000 they say they can get under 25¢ per deck. I assume that includes the tuck.

[Bradius]

I think I was originally in for two, but after reading here that they most certainly were not being printed by USPCC, I backed out of the project. I have no interest in this project if it is not done through USPCC.

[ICantShuffle]

Yeah, I'm going to drop out, too. I didn't know who the printer was for the Mauger deck, but since this is obviously a reproduction of a historic USPCC deck, it should be printed by USPCC.

As someone who has produced works in the past for people (painting commissions, not playing cards) I can't support IP theft with my money.

[PipChick]

I can't support IP theft with my money.

ditto

[guru]

Canceled the pledge and I'm out too. I think I'm going to find the original now.

[ICantShuffle]

I probably won't be backing any of this creator's further projects, either. They're obviously willing to lie to backers.

I have a bad case of apophenia, or maybe just I'm generally paranoid, but I'm wondering if "Michael Scott" is actually who they purport to be or if it's maybe a pseudonym (like this Freedom Playing Card company) used as a front to sell these Guangzhou manufactured decks as Bikes. Does anyone know this person? Met them at 52+J or through the club? Hopefully I'm just being paranoid.

I will admit I am satisfied with some of the past work of theirs that I do have, but in that case I wasn't concerned with who the printer was since that deck, AFAIK, did not have any living rights holders anymore and it was in competition with NY consolidated and Dougherty, so would not have been printed by any of the entities that eventually became USPCC. At least, to my knowledge, so fair game. But, now, looking back on it, I'm wondering if the decks they claimed were printed by USPCC, were actually printed by USPCC.

[Gareth]

I have a bad case of apophenia, or maybe just I'm generally paranoid, but I'm wondering if "Michael Scott" is actually who they purport to be or if it's maybe a pseudonym (like this Freedom Playing Card company) used as a front to sell these Guangzhou manufactured decks as Bikes. [...] Hopefully I'm just being paranoid.

I do think their original campaigns- including the Cobey Pile created 8-Bit decks were genuine USPCC, but something seemed to change at some point. I do remember the Hawaiian deck as the first they produced which I felt a little uneasy about - something didn't seem quite right - and never backed. Only one of these decks were Bicycle branded, but supposedly all printed by USPCC - although now Mike now reports this Chinese company is passing them out as demos of their work. Hmm..

As much as 'Michael Scott' is under question here, two of the other Kickstarter accounts that post some of their campaigns appear less trustworthy: Jeff and Gavin - they just seem made up (although the 'Jeff' one has actually verified identity with KS and linked Facebook - unlike 'Gavin').

[flashcards]

From the "About" section of the campaign: [img]This%20is%20a%20restoration%20of%20the%20Tally-Ho%20Horseback%20deck%20from%201905.%20The%20art%20has%20been%20carefully%20recreated%20to%20match%20the%20original%20design.%20The%20back%20was%20unique%20among%20the%20other%20Tally-Ho%20backs,%20it%20included%20the%20horse%20and%20wagon%20wheels%20intertwined.%20The%20restored%20art%20has%20already%20been%20approved%20by%20the%20USPCC%20and%20they%20will%20be%20printing%20the%20decks%20as%20soon%20as%20the%20campaign%20is%20finished.[/img]

Even with this assurance, can he be taken at his word. It wouldn't be for first bait and switch we've fallen for- cough, JR, cough. This lack of confidence has got to be negatively affecting the campaign.