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Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:22 pm

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:12 pm Which WJPC WindWatcher are you comparing with? The mini? Are there any pics up of that yet that aren't renders?

The same full size deck of the windwatcher edition from this campaign.

He printed them with WJPC last year, 630 went to patrons, the other 70 are in this campaign.

oh ok. I wrongly assumed that all the decks in the previous eoto series were by Cartamundi

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:27 pm oh ok. I wrongly assumed that all the decks in the precious eoto series were by Cartamundi

Pretty much it was, the EOTO1 patron edition (quartermaster) WAS printed by WJPC thought

when Lorenzo was trying to figure out what to do to get EOTO printed since Cartamundi was no longer an option, he had this to say about WJPC

For those wondering about quality, at WJPC I printed:

17th Kingdom all variants
Frogs: all variants
Odd Fellows Madame Laveau
Windwatcher Editioin
Quartermaster Editioin
mini decks
other

what Im saying is that patrons already have a WJPC EOTO2 decks in hand, the same windwatcher from the campaign that went up today. here are actual pictures of it

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:14 pm

Adamthinks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:12 pm

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:08 pm

Adamthinks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:02 pm

WJPC does cold foiling, and these decks will have it. Not sure why you think otherwise. Also, WJPCC decks handle very well. And since the texture on their cards is less pronounced, the foiling will look better than it did with Cartamundi. Cartamundi makes great normal printed cards. They suck at foiling though.

Cartamundi shows evidence of nice foil work on decks and WJPC has some decks with poor foiling and vice versa. I missed the part about WJPCC decks handling like shit and don't agree with that statement. The linen texture being more prominent on Cartamundi is debatable. I think it's WJPC that is more pronounced. Which deck(s) will have foil work besides the Nephilim?

All 3 decks are foiled.

That's awesome. Where does it say that?

"Cards: faces
The faces are exquisitely illustrated, including custom court cards in vibrant colors, and a back design with cold-foil application in several hues. This combination was tested before specifically for the deck The 17th Kingdom Avant Garde, winner of 2 prizes as best deck of 2023."

You can also plainly see it in the pictures.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:32 pm

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 1:27 pm oh ok. I wrongly assumed that all the decks in the precious eoto series were by Cartamundi

Pretty much it was, the EOTO1 patron edition (quartermaster) WAS printed by WJPC thought

when Lorenzo was trying to figure out what to do to get EOTO printed since Cartamundi was no longer an option, he had this to say about WJPC

For those wondering about quality, at WJPC I printed:

17th Kingdom all variants
Frogs: all variants
Odd Fellows Madame Laveau
Windwatcher Editioin
Quartermaster Editioin
mini decks
other

what Im saying is that patrons already have a WJPC EOTO2 decks in hand, the same windwatcher from the campaign that went up today. here are actual pictures of it

ww1.jpg



ww2.jpg

I understand that you are saying the patreon windwatcher deck is WJPCC and that it was released a year or 2 ago. I am not questioning viability of high quality cards from WJPC. Thank you for the breakdown of info. I'm very impressed by the quality and prices of this campaign. WJPC decks can be foiled and gilded and sold for about 20€ and be very profitable for reputable creators. I hope this is a new trend. I understand there are many factors that determine pricing but whatever it is, it's working for Lorenzo. I am slowly becoming an S17 fan and a lot of that has to do with how he conducts business. I am usually very put-off when I see a ks campaign trying to sell decks with similar features and specs for 35$,55$,65$,85$,115$....etc.

Pretty sure the short answer is volume, per unit cost goes down if you aren't having to price and sell 300-500 decks and instead can sell thousands. Or know that if you do print thousands only 500 are going to sell right now and you need to pay for the whole run.

Lorenzo is just better at planning I guess.

But I'm just guessing I have no idea the costs of any of this (at least past what TGW has said about it)

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:23 pm Pretty sure the short answer is volume, per unit cost goes down if you aren't having to price and sell 300-500 decks and instead can sell thousands. Or know that if you do print thousands only 500 are going to sell right now and you need to pay for the whole run.

Lorenzo is just better at planning I guess.

But I'm just guessing I have no idea the costs of any of this (at least past what TGW has said about it)

Volume is important. I see usually between 700 and 1000 as minimum print runs on releases.

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:39 pm
Volume is important. I see usually between 700 and 1000 as minimum print runs on releases.

Yes and then they have 4 different backs on those decks and a gilded variant...maybe several....and one with foil.

And then the tuck, and perhaps the deluxe tuck, and maybe shipping between the printer of the tucks and the cards, or even to a third party....and then to the distributor.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:42 pm

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:39 pm
Volume is important. I see usually between 700 and 1000 as minimum print runs on releases.

Yes and then they have 4 different backs on those decks and a gilded variant...maybe several....and one with foil

Do you mean to say that production runs of 700-1000 decks are usually foiled,gilded, embossed, etc? I don't understand your reply.

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:50 pm

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:42 pm

CCwonder wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 2:39 pm
Volume is important. I see usually between 700 and 1000 as minimum print runs on releases.

Yes and then they have 4 different backs on those decks and a gilded variant...maybe several....and one with foil

Do you mean to say that production runs of 700-1000 decks are usually foiled,gilded, embossed, etc? I don't understand your reply.

Its slightly more complex than that if I follow what TGW said.

you have to pay to setup each front or back

so
a red back
a blue back
a black back
a normal front
a foiled front
any alternate fronts
and lets assume that everything is on the same card stock.

then each combination of front/back will have a minimum print run.

then if you want them foiled you just take some # of the original print run and either have the printer foil it or package up the decks and send that to an external foiling company (I know TWI has done that).

so no you cant just look at USPCC with a minimum print run of say 2000 on a campaign with say 4 variants and assume that they ONLY had to print 2000, they probably had to print 8000.

That is a lot of decks.

Whomever said WJPC decks handle like shit has absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:02 pm you have to pay to setup each front or back

I don't think red back and blue back require any additional setup since they're using the same plates. It's just using different CMYK inks with the exact same plates. It's when the design changes or you add foiling where you run into additional costs. I could be wrong, but if the printers are charging for a color swap, that's ridiculous to me.

kevork wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:43 pm

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:02 pm you have to pay to setup each front or back

I don't think red back and blue back require any additional setup since they're using the same plates. It's just using different CMYK inks with the exact same plates. It's when the design changes or you add foiling where you run into additional costs. I could be wrong, but if the printers are charging for a color swap, that's ridiculous to me.

the plates cost is probably around 300$ and labor cost around 25cents per deck so total on 1000 print run could be around 50 or 60 cents per plate per deck.

From a KS update, also made me laugh:

hsbc wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:51 pm From a KS update, also made me laugh:

That weirdo had to back the campaign to make that comment.

I guess he spotted Lorenzos very short FAQ on creating card art with AI that hes been working on.

(I wouldn't normally post things from patron emails but they covered this on the deal me in podcast)

Adamthinks wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:55 pm That weirdo had to back the campaign to make that comment.

It's a YouTube comment, not a KS comment

Out of curiosity, why's S17 not fond of front foiling, but seems to always do it on the backs?

Decided just to go with a single deck in the end, as per my rule about sets.

Much as I'd like to have a go at the puzzle, it's a lot of money for a book that I would not normally buy, and I already have the first one gathering dust and taking up space.

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:28 pm Out of curiosity, why's S17 not fond of front foiling, but seems to always do it on the backs?

Dunno about not fond

rising spade, requiem, and the most recent odd fellow madam levau all have foil on the faces.

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:40 pm

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:28 pm Out of curiosity, why's S17 not fond of front foiling, but seems to always do it on the backs?

Dunno about not fond

rising spade, requiem, and the most recent odd fellow madam levau all have foil on the faces.

Not EOTO 2
Doesn't matter anyway, basic pledges doesn't ship to my country.

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:47 pm

Evilgamer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:40 pm

Disenchanted_11 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:28 pm Out of curiosity, why's S17 not fond of front foiling, but seems to always do it on the backs?

Dunno about not fond

rising spade, requiem, and the most recent odd fellow madam levau all have foil on the faces.

Not EOTO 2
Doesn't matter anyway, basic pledges doesn't ship to my country.

I'd guess that he feels it doesn't fit with the map motif. Some decks look better without front foiling. Many of the Jocu decks for example are better without foil.

I like the courts enough to get a deck but I'll probably back out once it hits the 'upgrade' to gilded. I know people like things to be shiny but it doesn't appeal to me at all. To be honest I don't even like the edging, I find coloured sides to be gaudy and unnecessary.

Timmargh wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:31 pm Decided just to go with a single deck in the end, as per my rule about sets.

Much as I'd like to have a go at the puzzle, it's a lot of money for a book that I would not normally buy, and I already have the first one gathering dust and taking up space.

This comment resonates with me. I’m doing my best to pick up less versions of things (where possible). I usually make exceptions for Lorenzo. I am tempted by the puzzle since I solved the first one but it’s a lot for the book, even though I would like to read it.

shunterino wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:49 pm I like the courts enough to get a deck but I'll probably back out once it hits the 'upgrade' to gilded. I know people like things to be shiny but it doesn't appeal to me at all. To be honest I don't even like the edging, I find coloured sides to be gaudy and unnecessary.

To each their own. At this point uncolored edges just look unfinished to me. There is some discussion on KS about just sticking with the painted edges. Having just looked at the painted red edges of kingdom17 and the gilded red odd fellows octo I still see the painted version as being relatively cheap looking in comparison.

hsbc wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 4:51 pm From a KS update, also made me laugh:

At what reasons this…. donkey (Shakespeare’s insults, so as Gordon Ramsay’s) THINK that these are AI-Generated?!

alric wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 12:43 pm The linen finish is used to make the cards handle better. The fact that WJPCC is printing the cards makes me considerably less enthused about this project. There's no cold foiling on the cards, they will handle like shit, and now there will be a glaring inconsistency between Part 1 and Part 2 in terms of printing and handling. I don't think sacrificing all of the above is worth just a slight improvement of the print quality of the back design. Plus, most of you here buy decks just for the fancy tucks anyways. I was initially irked by the fact there is no pledge tier for a brick, you only have the options of 3, 6, or 18 for multi-deck pledges. But now that I know these will be printed by WJPCC, 3 is probably all I'll get.

I'm guessing the trend towards WJPCC has more to do with a better profit margin rather than quality.

While I like Cartamundi for apparently exceptional printed cards, now they are just NOT dependable anymore. With Jirs, our favorite insider, is no longer there - Cartamundi seemed to have been hit with a big wrench and now they are stuck hard. Until they can get their game straight, we just relent on other printers, as long it’s not USPCC with their continuous offset drama.

Like EvilGamer said: “THE NEED TO GET THE CARDS PRINTED”. If all notable producers keep going for Cartamundi, their projects gotta end up waiting and waiting and waiting. And then later, you might gotta see them releasing projects back to back. Do you want that kind of stress?
Even Curio Cards, who is in progress producing War on Realms goes: “Fudge it! I am moving to WJPC” - same goes with now live Eye of the Ocean Vol.2. Jocu would probably move printer, knowing how they were “betrayed” by Cartamundi - and this brand is known for always printing their cards with Cartamundi. WJPC has improved a LOT since Ben Green’s Testament OG Playing Cards, and since then, a lot of producers go to them and the verdicts are positive.

We all just have to adapt, no matter if it’s good or bad.

Timmargh wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:31 pm I already have the first one gathering dust and taking up space.

I also have the volume 1 novel, and how much I wish Volume 2 is a separate book. Unfortunately, it is bundled with Volume 1, so no choice to get another Volume 1. Can use that Vol.1 book to hide a deck, just like how the story goes.

Besides, I think this decision is made because, this to compensate on those who missed Volume 1 - people who missed them gets to read Volume 1, and returning adventure reader gets to read the whole story without getting interrupted with “To Be Continued”. I am assuming the symbols from Vol.1 will be gone in this new book, now perhaps replaced with puzzle element for Vol.2.
(TMI: Looking at the Orbis Triplex, and I can assume, the puzzle might be harder this time)

A Windwatcher already being auctioned on SoCal - a profiteer or just a patreon who doesn't like them?

theres at least one on eBay too.

profiteer most likely the top two tiers of the patreon did get 2 copies.