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JacksonRobinson wrote:The situation totally sucks for all parties involved for sure, and I am only talking from someone who knows all to well about deck screw ups.

The only harry part of this deal is that, the decks were accepted and then shipped to costumers. When the shipment was received and before they were shipped out the fulfillment company should have opened up a few to double check before signing the bill of lading. Opening a few decks and checking for any major screw ups is just as important as checking for shipping damage. That fact may make it much harder to get EPCC to reprint because to them the decks were accepted and signed off on. Not trying to stir anything up for sure I just know and have learned from experience that if there is a screw up that you want the printer to fix you can't sign off and ship to costumers.

You're right and next time I'll definitely ask them to do so. However, I wonder what somebody in the fulfillment center can spot in a deck about which s/he has practically no idea. I'm sure EPCC will go beyond what is typical, to fix the issue.

Lotrek wrote:

JacksonRobinson wrote:The situation totally sucks for all parties involved for sure, and I am only talking from someone who knows all to well about deck screw ups.

The only harry part of this deal is that, the decks were accepted and then shipped to costumers. When the shipment was received and before they were shipped out the fulfillment company should have opened up a few to double check before signing the bill of lading. Opening a few decks and checking for any major screw ups is just as important as checking for shipping damage. That fact may make it much harder to get EPCC to reprint because to them the decks were accepted and signed off on. Not trying to stir anything up for sure I just know and have learned from experience that if there is a screw up that you want the printer to fix you can't sign off and ship to costumers.

You're right and next time I'll definitely ask them to do so. However, I wonder what somebody in the fulfillment center can spot in a deck about which s/he has practically no idea. I'm sure EPCC will go beyond what is typical, to fix the issue.

If your fulfillment center is not familiar with your products, then you should find a new fulfillment center. They also should be sending you as the creator and customer pictures of everything. Pictures of how the pallets arrived, pictures of the all skus and how they arrived. I'm pretty sure your decks don't have bar codes on them (it would be ashamed if they did as they look great) so your fulfillment center better be familiar with what decks/tucks are what to make sure people get the right ones.

Got my cards and booklet in today. WOW! Seriously incredible product, Lotrek. Simply amazing.


Though, as much as I hate to add to the 'things gone wrong with this project' pile, and I don't say this to be a dick but in an effort to help so please don't take it the wrong way, but there are a few typos in the booklet. In the QoH story, "poisoned glass of wine" is spelled wrong, it's spelled "posoned" in the book. Also, on the JoC page, wealthiest is spelled "welthiest", and on the JoD page, I assume that Ascanio was tried for stabbing rather than "stubbing" someone.

JacksonRobinson wrote:The situation totally sucks for all parties involved for sure, and I am only talking from someone who knows all to well about deck screw ups.

The only harry part of this deal is that, the decks were accepted and then shipped to costumers. When the shipment was received and before they were shipped out the fulfillment company should have opened up a few to double check before signing the bill of lading. Opening a few decks and checking for any major screw ups is just as important as checking for shipping damage. That fact may make it much harder to get EPCC to reprint because to them the decks were accepted and signed off on. Not trying to stir anything up for sure I just know and have learned from experience that if there is a screw up that you want the printer to fix you can't sign off and ship to costumers.

Jackson, what you are saying is absurd, and suggests that no company but Kings Wild Fulfillment can ship cards. Lotrek already got and verified sample decks.

Even if someone in the center knew every single playing cards project intimately, what you say would require that you either A) assume every package us the same or B) open every single tuck. B is of course absurd, and A is refuted by the fact that the sample decks are properly assembled.

To be fair Mike I cant see a reference to KWF in JR's replies. Nor would he know about the sample packs sent to the fulfilment co.

Sound advice IMO.

What legal leg would Lotrek have to stand on if they turned around and said "the product was inspected and signed for - I'm afraid we are under no obligation to do anything" ?

Mike Ratledge wrote:

JacksonRobinson wrote:The situation totally sucks for all parties involved for sure, and I am only talking from someone who knows all to well about deck screw ups.

The only harry part of this deal is that, the decks were accepted and then shipped to costumers. When the shipment was received and before they were shipped out the fulfillment company should have opened up a few to double check before signing the bill of lading. Opening a few decks and checking for any major screw ups is just as important as checking for shipping damage. That fact may make it much harder to get EPCC to reprint because to them the decks were accepted and signed off on. Not trying to stir anything up for sure I just know and have learned from experience that if there is a screw up that you want the printer to fix you can't sign off and ship to costumers.

Jackson, what you are saying is absurd, and suggests that no company but Kings Wild Fulfillment can ship cards. Lotrek already got and verified sample decks.

Even if someone in the center knew every single playing cards project intimately, what you say would require that you either A) assume every package us the same or B) open every single tuck. B is of course absurd, and A is refuted by the fact that the sample decks are properly assembled.

Mike, I never mentioned Kings Wild fulfillment once in my previous response. Kings Wild fulfillment doesn't even exist any more. I feel like you didn't even really read my response because nothing you said make and sense in context to what I said.

No... asking a fulfillment company to be familiar with your products is in no way absurd. They have to be familiar enough with them to see that "oh this is deck A and this is deck B" especially if there is no bar code to tell them apart. Asking them to open and inspect a few packages at time of delivery is not absurd and should be a common best practice ritual. If All the decks were swapped like people are reporting just even opening one deck and taking a few pics and sending them to Lotrek would have let the designer who is very familiar with the decks realize the mistake that had been made.

Also even if you sent 100 sample packs to the fulfillment center, opening a few of the received packages to make sure they match the sample packs is not much to expect or ask from any fulfillment company.

I agree. I need to take my tin foil hat off. KWF may not exist, but nobody is or ever has had that level of control and precision over the decks except when you did have it.

The fulfillment centers can't possibly know decks like we do or the artist does. They can't tell whether a game is correctly assembled, much less an electronic product. The suggestions are great, but the implementation of them is very unlikely. They follow the instructions they get. That's pretty much it.

The factory correctly followed the instructions to assemble the decks Lotrek got, so what changed?

Mike Ratledge wrote:I agree. I need to take my tin foil hat off. KWF may not exist, but nobody is or ever has had that level of control and precision over the decks except when you did have it.

The fulfillment centers can't possibly know decks like we do or the artist does. They can't tell whether a game is correctly assembled, much less an electronic product. The suggestions are great, but the implementation of them is very unlikely. They follow the instructions they get. That's pretty much it.

The factory correctly followed the instructions to assemble the decks Lotrek got, so what changed?

Well your thoughts on electronic devices, and fully assembled games may be correct, however we are talking about a stack of paper in a box. The implementation of my thoughts are easy and very likely even when I had a fulfillment center, They had a huge binder just for my stuff that had pictures of everything.

Even if a fulfillment center is mindlessly "just following instructions" opening a few decks and inspecting the contents then relaying pics of those contents to the client is not a big ask nor is it something that is unlikely to be implemented.

JacksonRobinson wrote: Even if a fulfillment center is mindlessly "just following instructions" opening a few decks and inspecting the contents then relaying pics of those contents to the client is not a big ask nor is it something that is unlikely to be implemented.

That's the very least that can be asked for and shouldn't be a problem to oblige. We do that all the time when we print wholesale for our clients: They ask for a hard proof before green lighting the entire run and ask for one before accepting the finished product. Then again, that kind of thing should've probably happened before it left the printing phase. Sending it to fulfillment center and subsequently distribution just dug an even deeper hole.

However, the more detailed control would be a little harder to the get the fulfillment company to follow, unless it's a specialized center like KWF and Gambler's who focus almost exclusively with playing cards.

Hey, guys! Stop quarreling!

@ Jackson: My fulfillment company inspected everything, reported minor damages in the external cases and sent me photos of everything. They even noticed that the edges of the tucks are not as square as in the standard Bicycle decks and asked me if they were meant to be like this. They are very careful and helpful and I'm generally very pleased by their service. They just didn't open any decks as it's their policy not to do it unless I ask them to.
The sample decks I got from the Taiwan factory were correctly placed so I really didn't have any reason to ask them open anything. Of course next time I'll be asking them to x-ray some decks, no doubt about it. You always learn and improve as you go.

montecarlojoe wrote:To be fair Mike I cant see a reference to KWF in JR's replies. Nor would he know about the sample packs sent to the fulfilment co.

Sound advice IMO.

What legal leg would Lotrek have to stand on if they turned around and said "the product was inspected and signed for - I'm afraid we are under no obligation to do anything" ?

EPCC is working with me on finding a solution. They're willing to fix it and this is good news.

Lotrek wrote:EPCC is working with me on finding a solution. They're willing to fix it and this is good news.

Excellent!

Lotrek wrote:Hey, guys! Stop quarreling!

B...b..b..but this is the internet.

@Chach: For the typos in the booklet, I am to blame as it was written by me.

How 'bout those Icons decks? I haven't got my VDs yet.

Lotrek wrote:

JacksonRobinson wrote:The situation totally sucks for all parties involved for sure, and I am only talking from someone who knows all to well about deck screw ups.

The only harry part of this deal is that, the decks were accepted and then shipped to costumers. When the shipment was received and before they were shipped out the fulfillment company should have opened up a few to double check before signing the bill of lading. Opening a few decks and checking for any major screw ups is just as important as checking for shipping damage. That fact may make it much harder to get EPCC to reprint because to them the decks were accepted and signed off on. Not trying to stir anything up for sure I just know and have learned from experience that if there is a screw up that you want the printer to fix you can't sign off and ship to costumers.

You're right and next time I'll definitely ask them to do so. However, I wonder what somebody in the fulfillment center can spot in a deck about which s/he has practically no idea. I'm sure EPCC will go beyond what is typical, to fix the issue.

Sad to heat this buddy. Hope EPCC will sort this out as they are very professional...As far as fulfillment center is concerned, its always good to use the services of one who knows about the products & is involved in kick starter campaigns because of the diversity of products...This will immensely reduce errors...

I think that has to be one of the cruelest errors ever, not something you can easily pick up. It's a huge low as an artist when this sort of thing happens and it's clear to see the passion in Lotrek's work. Having to rely on a shipping company myself, I'm not sure I would have considered asking them to check the cards in the decks. How many?

It happens unfortunately, but it doesn't take away from the amazing work in this deck. Beautiful as always Lotrek, hoping EPCC comes back with a solid fix.

So one week later and no word on the resolution?

Will the Icons ship in two days as you said in your last update on KS?

/bama

It didn't seem like many people were bitching in the comments area. Also did fulfillment really stop at the moment? I'm still waiting for my two decks which I hope I'll get them next week. Besides that just do whatever you feel is best.

Bill Kalush at EPCC was very eager to help and I'm pleased to say that we found a solution to the problem. We need to fix a couple of details before I post an update regarding this. Indeed fulfillment was paused and it will continue very soon.

@Bama: Regarding ICONS, it seems that fulfillment will begin this week. I say "it seems" because the issues I've faced are beyond description. A book deserves to be written...

LOTREK !

Thanks for your strength and perseverance in these trying circumstances matey .....
Don't knock yerself out too much eh ?

' In the big scheme o'things .... Kepler wuz wrong .... the Centre of th'Universe is .... You ! '

Apologies to Alfred Russel Wallace.

I think that the solution that Bill and you and GW came up with is fantastic. Way to think outside the box! (So to speak.)

And, I am *not* trying to add pressure, but when it is convenient for you, I'd still love to know... what solution did Bill and y'all come up with for the uncuts?

These decks are truly amazing. And the tuckbox issue notwithstanding, EPCC did a truly superb job on the cards.

Every time I read about Greece's financial woes in the news, it makes me sad... because I know it's impacting me getting my signature decks! (And, I'm selfish that way.)

rousselle wrote:
And, I am *not* trying to add pressure, but when it is convenient for you, I'd still love to know... what solution did Bill and y'all come up with for the uncuts?

I'd just like to +1 this. Don't mind the decks being swapped really, but with the uncuts not being printed, people are out money. I'm in no rush whatsoever, and figure you're working on something and probably can't talk until details are ironed out, but letting us know if something is in the works would ease some minds. I just hope it doesn't entail a full refund with a "sorry guys."

rousselle wrote:I think that the solution that Bill and you and GW came up with is fantastic. Way to think outside the box! (So to speak.)

And, I am *not* trying to add pressure, but when it is convenient for you, I'd still love to know... what solution did Bill and y'all come up with for the uncuts?

These decks are truly amazing. And the tuckbox issue notwithstanding, EPCC did a truly superb job on the cards.

Every time I read about Greece's financial woes in the news, it makes me sad... because I know it's impacting me getting my signature decks! (And, I'm selfish that way.)

Yes, we considered all options and we ended up that this solution is the fastest and cheapest. Damn, seems that nobody really cares about the switched tucks, I hope we're not doing this in vain...
But jokes aside, there would really be a problem for 1deck backers or for those who ordered more to resell later. Anyway, it may be funny for some to have the wrong deck in the wrong tuck but it's not good.

For the uncuts we're still trying but I'm not very optimistic tbh.. Setting the machine to print a few uncuts actually costs the same with having a new print run. We could do a digital printing but we cannot print the metallic inks with it. One option is me offering "uncuts" like the ICONS, in other words composing an uncut from cards showing both faces and backs, or just refunding the people who ordered uncut sheets.
I'm exploring another option though, which may be the solution. Not sure if it works but I got to check. I'll tell you more when I have an answer.

As for Greece's financial situation, it causes great problems, mainly because due to the capital controls as many manufacturers cannot order materials from abroad. I have secured all funds I need for ICONS and Venexiana so if nothing else gets screwed up we'll be fine.

The problem was solved. EPCC has shipped all decks to Gamblers' Warehouse, where they'll manually switch tucks, reseal the decks with new seals, wrap them with cellophane and send them back to my fulfillment center. Right now we're waiting for the new seals which should arrive in a couple of days.

This cure will be worse than the disease. GW will need to remove the old seal -- how badly will this mar the tuck? Putting a new seal on a damaged tuck will produce a seal over a damaged tuck that is likely to look rough and then peel.

Please, please, please just send me the decks the way they are!

/bama

bamabenz wrote:

The problem was solved. EPCC has shipped all decks to Gamblers' Warehouse, where they'll manually switch tucks, reseal the decks with new seals, wrap them with cellophane and send them back to my fulfillment center. Right now we're waiting for the new seals which should arrive in a couple of days.

This cure will be worse than the disease. GW will need to remove the old seal -- how badly will this mar the tuck? Putting a new seal on a damaged tuck will produce a seal over a damaged tuck that is likely to look rough and then peel.

Please, please, please just send me the decks the way they are!

/bama

Maybe they'll just cut the seal and place the new one right on top of the old one. Would be much easier than actually removing it, and if the new ones are placed carefully enough it won't make any difference anyway.

The seals are removed without damaging the stock. I've tried it. I hope they'll do a neat job as well. They said that they'll need about a week to do it. Seals are already sent to GW.

OKAY, this is so horrible that it's getting funny... I'm now seeing in fb that some people are getting the COVEN deck with the Venexiana Dark booklet. Please, if this is your case too, let me know.

And let's have a contest held: Whoever foresees what other problems shall I have with Venexiana Dark, wins a brick of swapped tuck decks!

EPPC shouldn't be calling themselves experts anymore with the screw ups they been doing lately. I'm on team Legends.

How about wrong pledge level delivered to wrong persons... How goes the signature decks my friend? are those on hold?