El Reino de los Muertos - Expert Edition / KS

[Romeril]

There is free shipping at gent supply for Black Friday. Use code FreeShipping19 it is valid until 11/29

[justplaycards]

Sadly they don't ship across the pond.

[justplaycards]

So they are thinking of adding a second collectors edition? I am not sure that's fair on the backers of the original limited edition.

[Bradius]

Yes, they did add a second collectors edition. I really like the artwork on this deck and like the custom tucks. I ended up getting both versions of the limited tuck. Lord help my bank account.

I believe both limited tucks are sold out, but there are likely going to be some last minute drops. If you want one, best ask now and hope you can get one that drops.





I am not a skull deck kind of collector, but the artwork is so good I couldn't pass on this campaign.

[Decknowledgy]

Once again, another project delayed by Cartamundi forcing the creator to make tough decisions... Cartamundi has got to get their $*#t together

Hello backers! Happy new year!
We hope everything went amazing for you on these holidays!

We are sorry it took us so long to get back here to answer all your messages, we were taking a deserved break after that amazing campaign so please forgive us.

We would like to tackle all of your questions...

- Regarding the surveys, they are not ready yet, we have been finishing all the questions so you guys dont get confused, since we have a lot of rewards, we are working on having all the questions about them covered, expect the surveys this week.

- We have been trying to get in contact with Cartamundi with no success, we havent had an answer from them in more than 30 days, we dont even have an official quote for the decks yet, (just some unofficial numbers that are close to the final quote but are not "official" yet since they are not signed), which is starting to make us feel a little insecure about printing with them, not because they are not reliable (we have already printed decks with them before without any problems), but because this might not be the best time to do it, since they seem to be very very busy and they are finishing all the USPCC adquisition stuff and are clearly understaffed/too busy to answer emails. So we decided to give them a deadline for an answer if they don't answer us by January 24th 2020 we will have to take the decision to print everything with USPCC (The company that makes the bicycle brand).

USPCC was recently acquired by Cartamundi, so this will not compromise the quality of our deck since Cartamundi and USPCC are at the top of the printing industry standards and USPCC is now owned by Cartamundi.

We got in contact with USPCC this week and got an answer right away, they are working on the official quote for the project right now.

We dont know why Cartamundi hasnt been able to answer us, but if we wait more time, our delivery window will get compromised and if communication with them continues to be this irregular through the printing process, we might get unexpected delays and/or unintended errors.

This is a difficult decision to take, but we think its the best for the project. Price and quality wont be compromised.

Thanks for your time and patience!

[montenzi]

Once again, another project delayed by Cartamundi forcing the creator to make tough decisions... Cartamundi has got to get their $*#t together

You will be surprised, but UC2019 funded in October is not in production yet. So nothing new. Without the foil, I would have already switched printers.

[kem-collector]

You will be surprised, but UC2019 funded in October is not in production yet. So nothing new. Without the foil, I would have already switched printers.

I still go to your website at least three times a week and look at the renders and sigh in longing...

[Harvonsgard]

Unreliable registration vs. unreliable communication/schedule ... decisions

[theCapraAegagrus]

Unreliable registration vs. unreliable communication/schedule ... decisions

That's why EPCC is the best...

[Decknowledgy]

From the latest update, I think this is a valuable piece of information of insider's detail of playing card production, and I'm thankful for this level of honesty:

Regarding our last update
On our last update we wanted to let you know of our predicament, go back to Cartamundi or go forward with USPCC? but some of you got fixated on "the back ups" situation.

We now realize that we didn't do a good enough job at communicating why we needed to work on the Cartamundi template again, thats why it will get explained here in the hopes that this is not something that will derange the conversation from the main objective of all of this, which is, getting this project to be a reality with the best possible quality.

First - We have backs ups of everything important, this is common practice in any decent design office, our master files (the original artwork and most important files of any project) are very well backed up in several SSDs and even on the cloud. So no "work" was lost when we decided to change printers from Cartamundi to USPCC.

Second - The process for getting an official quote from Cartamundi and from USPCC is quite different.

- For a USPCC quote you have to submit the final files first (on their templates) for them to give you an official quote on your project then you can make the payment and finally start schedulling your project for print.

- For a Cartamundi quote you can submit images/renders of your work to get an official quote, after you agree to that quote and make the payment (100% in advance) then you submit your files on their templates and they give you a estimated date for print.

Third - What we "eliminated" was a draft of a deck of cards project (NOT a final "printer ready" file as some of you assumed) that was going to be tweaked/fixed for it to eventually be the Cartamundi final template/format.

But because we didnt get an answer from Cartamundi for so long we abandoned working towards a Cartamundi format and started to work on the USPCC format. The work "lost" on the Cartamundi draft was reused for the USPCC format, since this generated a new file, we didn't have a use for our first draft (which only had a basic structure of a deck of cards, no final details) and we deleted it. Thats it.

But now that we chose to print with Cartamundi again, we actually need to adjust the files that we have (final USPCC template/format files) to the Cartamundi template/format which wont take more than 2 weeks (which we actually have since Cartamundi scheduled us for the last weeks of April) and no, we wont delete the USPCC files.

Fourth - Before printing a deck of cards, there needs to be several revisions of the files for them to be on the "right" format with the "right" specifications of each and every detail of it. With USPCC that happens before you get an official quote, with Cartamundi that happens after you get the quote and have payed for the project. Our experience makes this revision process a very short one, because this is not the first deck of cards that we have printed with both companies.

Fifth - Templates change and specifications change every 3 to 4 months depending of the company.


We appreciate the passionate feedback that you have given us in the last update, rest assured that we are doing our best to make this deck a reality with the best possible options available.

Thanks! and take care.

[masagin303]

I've just receive mine today. It came up very well! I just don't like that it came only in a bubble wrap inside an envelope. Fortunately no damage was done. But still prefer boxes.

[caniveski]

i ordered 2 and they came in a box : ) also do not like envelopes unless they are Greek !! never had an issue with Greek envelopes

[macstrat]

Im still waiting on mine. I forgot I backed this project, ordered a deck online during a black friday sale, then got an update that US shipping had started. I will be receiving my deck from the retailer before I receive my deck from the kickstarter. Is it just me or is this issue getting out of control, being able to get decks faster from retailers than the project itself? It legit makes me not want back kickstarters anymore.

[rousselle]

It's not "getting" out of control. This has been the way of the world for a long as I've been collecting like a rabid, um, collector person (going back to Jackson's first campaign and the days of Ellusionist's original Ghost decks).

It's not even that the project creator ships to the retailers before shipping to everyone else. What happens is, the retailers make a deal with the project creator to buy the decks in quantity, and then to save money, have the decks shipped directly to them from the manufacturer rather than shipped to the project creator's fulfillment center and then from there to the retailer, thus saving lots of money. Controlling costs helps them to sell decks at a profit, which is why they are in the business.

The problem is, this means they often get their decks even before the fulfillment centers do (logistics), and then can occasionally even sell them for less than the backers paid in the first place, which is what annoys me more than the timing. You can't really blame the project creator for this state of affairs, and many have successfully convinced the retailers to stop it with the low-balling on the price, but no system is going to be perfectly equitable and, in this case, it's the backers who have to weigh the biggest risk: if I don't back it, will the deck even be produced and, if it is, will the version I want still be available after the campaign? Sometimes, the answer is no. But, occasionally, the answer is yes. And, when that happens, the backer feels burned.

Macstrat: how often does this happen to you? Every campaign you back? Half of the campaigns you back? All of the new creators you back but none of the established creators you back? You may want to fine-tune your approach rather than just throw out the entire baby with the dirty bath water.

I love the fact that some creators have recognized the situation and try to do right by their backers. Gio, Montenzi, and others are completely transparent about their distribution channels. Jackson has forsaken KS altogether (and is completely transparent with his mulling over that he *might*, maybe, possibly, think about using KS for the Lord of the Rings decks, but he's still inclined not to, but here are the reasons why he might...), while other established designers are generally good about controlling for these issues.

International projects like this one are more likely to run into these issues, so that's something to also keep in mind. The first version of this deck *was* available via retailers, but only a few, and at a high price (presumably because of limited availability, limited competition, etc.) When I first became aware of the first version, I really wanted it, but not at the prices retailers were charging. I was happy when I heard about the V2 project, and while I am disappointed that I don't have the decks yet, I'm glad they are on their way and I'm not sweating the fact that they were delivered to some backers (and retailers) long before they got to me. It happens.

Your mileage may vary, of course. But, again, I don't think abandoning all KS projects is the solution to the problem. Just a thought.

[montenzi]

I got my decks from MM more than one month ago. It was quite a surprise that backers had not received their decks yet. Decks were sold almost instantly, and the wholesale price was not better than on Kickstarter

It's cost-effective to ship 1000-1500 decks via UPS from Belgium, but for 5000 decks, sea freight is a better option.

When you print 2500 and only sell 500-1000 on KS, decks will be available on all possible sites after KS! Sometimes, even "KS exclusive" decks!

[Jocu]

I’d like to step in and defend Murphys here as I’ve been biting my tongue having backed this campaign for a long time.

We’ve distributed every deck with Murphys.

Every single time, we have agreed a rate based purely on projected RRP. This was always decided by us. We made sure it would have an RRP no lower than we sell them on our site (give or take for exchange rates) and always higher than the Kickstarter rate.

We also have had decks sat with Murphys for months waiting to go on sale, that we have held off releasing until backers received their delayed decks (Hops & Barley).

I will say now that at no point was this ever questioned or pushed back against by Murphys. In fact I distinctly remember one conversation where we were asked to effectively name our price for the decks, on the understanding that a higher price would mean a higher RRP to retailers and we agreed something based on a good, affordable end customer price.

I think it’s all too easy when problems arise to paint distributors - especially Murphys - as the big bad guys in all this but I think it needs to be questioned now as I’m seeing a lot of negative comments about MM and too many ‘that’s business’ kind of remarks.

Tldr; MM have always sold at pre-agreed RRPs with me, they’ve always released decks only when we give the go ahead and have always been pleasant and open to work with.

For this situation to have happened, either the creator is lying about it or he simply never bothered to discuss any of it with Murphys because presumably it didn’t cross his mind.

For what it’s worth as well, the costs between sea freight and air freight aren’t worth the massive delay IMO. Montenzi is right (and knows all too well!) that UPS maxes out at about 2500 decks or so and that air freight is more expensive, but a delay of up to six weeks to save a few hundred bucks has never really worked for the amount of decks we’re trying to get out.

[rousselle]

Thanks for the real-world, behind-the-scenes insight!

I hope my own comments didn't come across as anti-retailer, because they weren't meant to be, and I'm glad to have more specifics behind the scenes. I also think you're right that, in general, when these kinds of things happen, they tend to be with newer creators who are still learning the ropes. And, really, you can't fault them *or* the retailers *or* the backers *or* the retail customers. The process is what the process is, and everyone involved has to make decisions based upon competing drives.

I'm fascinated by collectors who deride retailers, distributors (like MM), or even project creators as being "just being in it for the money" or pursuing "cash grabs." As if trying to make a living is a bad thing!

I want playing card designers, manufacturers, distributors, and retailers to continue to thrive, and that means they each need to make money in exchange for what they do. At the same time, I want to be able to continue to afford this bizarre hobby. And, so it goes.

[macstrat]

Macstrat: how often does this happen to you? Every campaign you back? Half of the campaigns you back? All of the new creators you back but none of the established creators you back? You may want to fine-tune your approach rather than just throw out the entire baby with the dirty bath water.

I had a reply written to this and lost it. so this time i am doin it in notepad first.

I have backed over 150 deck projects on kickstarter over the last few years Makin the assumption that a new creator is anyone with 2 decks or less than I would say 15% of them and, mbe 1/3 of them overall have this issue. So this is not an every deck kinda thing, but it is enough to be noteworthy. Some creators, Montezi, TWI, and PCD are 3 that spring to mind right away, that I have never had this issue with.

I dont mind backing first time creators, and all things considered, I would say i have been very lucky in that I have been screwed over as little as I have. But ironically, I dont seem to have these issues with them near as much as I have with designers with established trade routes, as it were. (I also NEVER assume anything is "kickstarter exclusive."

I got my decks from MM more than one month ago. It was quite a surprise that backers had not received their decks yet. Decks were sold almost instantly, and the wholesale price was not better than on Kickstarter

It's cost-effective to ship 1000-1500 decks via UPS from Belgium, but for 5000 decks, sea freight is a better option.

When you print 2500 and only sell 500-1000 on KS, decks will be available on all possible sites after KS! Sometimes, even "KS exclusive" decks!

I’d like to step in and defend Murphys here as I’ve been biting my tongue having backed this campaign for a long time.

Im not attacking Murphey at all. Or GW or any other person/company that does fuffilment. Its a bitch of a job havin to do that. Or even the prices. My umbridge comes from the fact that I should not be able to get a deck quicker from a retailer. Murpheys, IIRC (and please correct me if I am wrong on this), is strictly wholesale, so they arent actually selling directly to the general public. GW packages i have other issues with, but thats mostly between me adn the postal system, and a story for another day.

Heres an example: I did the layout work for a comic book a few years ago that was up on kickstarter. It was printed and all was good. Distrobution went out to retailers first then backers, Loically it made sense since they were providin a brunt of the orders. The retailers put it up for sale right away. We started gettin bombarded with pissed off people because they had not even recieved tracking numbers for their pledges before realizing that they could just goto the shop and pick up a copy there.

For at least a decade now, different industries have been placing restrictions on when retailers can sell, and TBH i think the same thing should be true of kickstarters, and it sounds like with some places they do. Set a Public release date that is far enough in advance that a majority of backers will have recieved their pledges, or at least notification of shipment BEFORE retailers are allowed to sell.
From their side: build the hype.
From the creators side: thank you for your controbution, we respect your pledge.
From the backers side: thank you for respecting us as donors.

Lookin back at that 150, 1/3 is well past the margin of error. I will also note again that certain fuffilment places (GW, PCD, Murpheys, and whoever TWI uses) ALWAYS seem respectful of this.

Anyway, I apoloize if I stepped on anyones toes, it was not my intention. For whatever reason, this time it just really got in my craw.

also @Jocu and @Montenzi:
Thank you for that backround. It is always interisting to hear things from the creators perspective that backers might not always be privy to.

Thanks for the real-world, behind-the-scenes insight!

I hope my own comments didn't come across as anti-retailer, because they weren't meant to be, and I'm glad to have more specifics behind the scenes. I also think you're right that, in general, when these kinds of things happen, they tend to be with newer creators who are still learning the ropes. And, really, you can't fault them *or* the retailers *or* the backers *or* the retail customers. The process is what the process is, and everyone involved has to make decisions based upon competing drives.

I'm fascinated by collectors who deride retailers, distributors (like MM), or even project creators as being "just being in it for the money" or pursuing "cash grabs." As if trying to make a living is a bad thing!

I want playing card designers, manufacturers, distributors, and retailers to continue to thrive, and that means they each need to make money in exchange for what they do. At the same time, I want to be able to continue to afford this bizarre hobby. And, so it goes.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[Jocu]

Don’t worry macstrat, I was mainly making a general comment as there was a lot of ‘Murphys did this it was out of our control’ defences from the creator and then users sharing experiences of when MM had done the same and it just snowballed on the comments over there.

Your point about using the release date to build hype is another thing I missed - Murphys do the same with decks they promote as well so it’s definitely their standard procedure. On this particular campaign to me it just seems like the creators just didn’t bother to think about the effects of doing things this way.

Abs you’re right Murphys is strictly wholesale. I think the confusion continues because they also do fulfilment and so many backers have received shipments directly from Murphys, but these are campaign rewards rather than purchases.

[RandyButterfield]

Here’s my guess at generally what happens with these projects that are available from Murphy’s before Backers get their packages.

Lack of money for fulfillment.

Fulfillment isn’t cheap (for me, it usually averages around $10 per Backer), and I think a lot of new KS Creators underestimate it. Usually the brunt of the Kickstarter money is spent on printing the Decks. If they don’t have any extra money that can be used for fulfillment, then they need to wait until Wholesale money comes in. Murphy’s pays 30 days after they receive their Decks, so that’s when the KS Creator could start on fulfillment. I think that’s the major cause of fulfillment after Murphy’s / Wholesale availability.

I do my Wholesale a little similar to what Jocu does. I always take care of fulfillment first. And then wait 10 days or more after that to send Murphy’s and other Wholesale orders. I’ve been doing that for about 3 years now, and haven’t had any problems or complaints.

Again, that’s just my guess as to what’s going on.

Thanks, Randy

[Jocu]

Here’s my guess at generally what happens with these projects that are available from Murphy’s before Backers get their packages.

Lack of money for fulfillment.

Fulfillment isn’t cheap (for me, it usually averages around $10 per Backer), and I think a lot of new KS Creators underestimate it. Usually the brunt of the Kickstarter money is spent on printing the Decks. If they don’t have any extra money that can be used for fulfillment, then they need to wait until Wholesale money comes in. Murphy’s pays 30 days after they receive their Decks, so that’s when the KS Creator could start on fulfillment. I think that’s the major cause of fulfillment after Murphy’s / Wholesale availability.

I do my Wholesale a little similar to what Jocu does. I always take care of fulfillment first. And then wait 10 days or more after that to send Murphy’s and other Wholesale orders. I’ve been doing that for about 3 years now, and haven’t had any problems or complaints.

Again, that’s just my guess as to what’s going on.

Thanks, Randy

That would explain why European backers still had to wait months after completion despite the decks shipping from Belgium to Germany just over the road.

Fulfilment is such a difficult thing for even experienced creators to plan for. I’d say your $10 per backer estimate is a good rule of thumb actually.

[macstrat]

Just received my deck today.....2 1/2 months after I received them from PCD!

[rousselle]

Just received my deck today.....2 1/2 months after I received them from PCD!

Are you in the US / Canada? Or, elsewhere?

[brownsl]

Still waiting for mine......

[macstrat]

Just received my deck today.....2 1/2 months after I received them from PCD!

Are you in the US / Canada? Or, elsewhere?

Im in the Northeastern US.

[rousselle]

I just received a tracking number for my decks; I hope that's a good sign that others who are also waiting for their decks will have their shipments coming soon, as well. Woo-hoo!

[brownsl]

I just received a tracking number for my decks; I hope that's a good sign that others who are also waiting for their decks will have their shipments coming soon, as well. Woo-hoo!

Same here, just received a tracking number.

[Bradius]

I haven't received my tracking number, but I am glad to hear that some have started to get them.

[brownsl]

Got my two decks yesterday.

[rousselle]

My pair of decks arrived recently, as well in great shape.

I'm happy with the decks. And, let's be honest, we've all backed projects that have run a *lot* later for fulfillment. But, the lack of communication was a very real issue.